C4 WERRIBEE SDARM FORUM
Thank You For Logging In

The Lord dwells between the cherubim

Post new topic   Reply to topic

View previous topic View next topic Go down

The Lord dwells between the cherubim

Post by Admin2 on Wed Sep 27, 2017 8:44 am

18 And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat.

Someone asked me why there are angels in the sanctuary. Here are my thoughts.

8 And let them make me a sanctuary; that I may dwell among them.
9 According to all that I shew thee, after the pattern of the tabernacle, and the pattern of all the instruments thereof, even so shall ye make it.

The sanctuary was made after a pattern of the heavenly tabernacle made without hands (see Hebrews)

In God's temple God has angels either side of His throne.

Is. 37:16 O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, that dwellest between the cherubims, thou art the God, even thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth: thou hast made heaven and earth.

I personally believe that these cherubims are called archangels. One of these I believe is Gabriel:

Luke 1:19 And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings.

Satan used to hold this position but when he fell, Gabriel took his place.

Gabriel is "the mighty angel who stands in God's presence, occupying the position from which Satan fell." DA 693

Michael is the name given to the one who held the position above Satan, whose position Satan desired:

Is. 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north.

Stars are angels and Satan wanted ascendency over them all.

Michael was the head of the angels:

Dan. 10:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of [the first of] the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

Rev. 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

He had the power to resurrect Moses:

Jude 9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

I believe Gabriel holds position as an archangel, beneath Michael. It is Gabriel's voice that declares Christ's coming.

1Th. 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first.

Michael means "the one who is like God."

I believe Jesus took the form of an angel to make God known to the angels.

Jesus was to reveal God both to men and to angels. He was the Word of God,—God's thought made audible. DA 19

Stars = angels and Jesus became the morning stars (archangel).

Rev. 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

Christ humbled Himself twice. From the throne of God to become like the angels, then again from archangel to man:

Heb. 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Then from man to criminal, illegally tried, wrongly convicted and murdered by His own church (Jews).

But now He has been exalted above every other name, and returned to His throne on high.

Phil. 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name.

May Christ receive the worship and honour due to Him by all His creation.

Heb. 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

John 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
John 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.





avatar
Admin2
Admin

Posts : 366
Join date : 2017-07-25

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The Lord dwells between the cherubim

Post by Wolfie on Wed Sep 27, 2017 9:09 pm

Admin 2 wrote the following:"I personally believe that these cherubims are called Archangels. One of these I believe is Gabriel."

That belief does not agree with the Bible.
1 Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Jesus is the archangel, His voice wakes up the dead. Jesus said, " I am the resurrection and the life"The voice of an angel cannot resurrect.

The Greek word, “arche” means “beginning” as well as “head” or “chief”
“Christ is the archangel. See Jude 9; 1 Thess. 4:16; John 5:28, 29; Dan. 10:21. This does not mean that He is the first of the angels, for He is not an angel but is above them. Heb. 1:4. It means that He is the chief or prince of the angels, just as an archbishop is the head of the bishops. Christ is the commander of the angels. "And there was war in heaven: Michael and His angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, and prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven" (Revelation 12:Cool.
The word archangel appears twice in the Bible, the plural form (archangels) does not appear at all
avatar
Wolfie

Posts : 325
Join date : 2017-08-02

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The Lord dwells between the cherubim

Post by Wolfie on Wed Sep 27, 2017 9:21 pm

Admin 2 wrote " stars = angels and Jesus became the morning star (archangel)
Jesus is God and now He became a star?

The nations of the saved will know no other law than the law of heaven. All will be a happy, united family, clothed with the garments of praise and thanksgiving. Over the scene the morning stars will sing together, and the sons of God will shout for joy, while God and Christ will unite in proclaiming, "There shall be no more sin, neither shall there be any more death." {AH 544.2}
avatar
Wolfie

Posts : 325
Join date : 2017-08-02

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The Lord dwells between the cherubim

Post by Wolfie on Wed Sep 27, 2017 9:34 pm

Christ as the sin-bearer, Christ as the bright and morning star, and the Lord will give us favor before the world until our work is done.--Letter 35, 1895.

Christ AS (not is) the bright and morning star (singular)
The morning stars(plural) sang together (could be angels)
avatar
Wolfie

Posts : 325
Join date : 2017-08-02

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The Lord dwells between the cherubim

Post by Wolfie on Wed Sep 27, 2017 10:01 pm

Admin 2 states.
He had the power to resurrect Moses ( Michael)
Jesus can resurrect,(not angels) so Michael must be Jesus
Admin 2 states: Michael is the name given to the one who held the position above Lucifer, (who later became Satan) whose position Satan desired. Michael resurrected Moses, therefore Lucifer desired the position of Jesus .
As previously quoted, Jesus is not an angel, he was(and probable still is) in charge of the angels (their boss) one of His names is Michael
avatar
Wolfie

Posts : 325
Join date : 2017-08-02

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The Lord dwells between the cherubim

Post by Wolfie on Wed Sep 27, 2017 10:18 pm

Admin 2 believes that Jesus took the form of an angel to make God known to the angels. Why? Give some evidence.
Another statement: Christ humbled himself twice , from the throne of God to become like the angels, then again from archangel to man. So Jesus became like the angels (He who is their commander)
then from archangel (archangel is Jesus,) so he never changed, Jesus is Jesus He left the thrones above to reveal God to us
avatar
Wolfie

Posts : 325
Join date : 2017-08-02

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The Lord dwells between the cherubim

Post by Wolfie on Wed Sep 27, 2017 10:21 pm

Another statement: "From man to criminal" !
He, our dear Saviour was treated as a criminal, but we know that He was not a criminal
avatar
Wolfie

Posts : 325
Join date : 2017-08-02

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The Lord dwells between the cherubim

Post by Admin2 on Thu Sep 28, 2017 6:07 am

Thank you for your comments Wolfie...they are good comments (most of them Smile

1. The Bible clearly states Jesús is the bright and morning star.

2. The Bible says the Lord shall descend with (or in) the voice of the archangel. It doesn't say He is the archangel who is shouting (He could be)...Jesus' voice raises the dead but Some believe it is not His voice that is shouting when He descends although I personally believe it is

There could be more than one archangel besides Christ

3. God dwells between the cherubim (angels). Satan was one covering cherub (eze 28:16) my question to Wolfie is who is the other covering cherub?


Christ was crucified, but in wondrous power and glory he rose from the tomb. He took in his grasp the world over which Satan claimed to preside, and restored the human race to favor with God. And at this glorious completion of his work, songs of triumph echoed and re-echoed through the unfallen worlds. Angel and archangel, cherubim and seraphim, joined in the chorus of victory. YI April 16, 1903, par

It could be Gabriel

If they [the youth] receive Christ and believe in Him, they will be brought into close relationship with God. He gives them power to become the sons of God, to associate with the highest dignitaries in the kingdom of heaven, to unite with Gabriel, with cherubim and seraphim, with angels and the archangel. TA 285

Of course I did not mean to imply Jesús was actually guilty of any crime which is why I wrote "illegally tried and wrongly convicted" I thought that was obvious sorry for the misunderstanding.


avatar
Admin2
Admin

Posts : 366
Join date : 2017-07-25

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The Lord dwells between the cherubim

Post by Wolfie on Thu Sep 28, 2017 2:45 pm

There could be more than one archangel besides Christ, you say Admin2
1Thess 4;16 and Juse 1:9, both verses deal with resurrection.

About the covering Cherub, Lucifer was one before he became satan, you stated that Gabriel took his place, and ask who the other one is. My answer to that is that I don't know, it has not been revealed, Deut 29:29 I don't think it is a salvation issue.

I do not believe that the word "archangel" has anything to do with the two cherubims that cover the mercy seat. I have not come across a statement or Bible verse that tells
me that the "archangel" is on the mercy seat
About from man to criminal I am jealous for Jesus, and that was a bad choice of words
Off course Jesus is the bright and morning star, not one of the morning stars
avatar
Wolfie

Posts : 325
Join date : 2017-08-02

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The Lord dwells between the cherubim

Post by Admin2 on Fri Sep 29, 2017 8:03 am

Heb. 2:14 ¶ Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
Heb. 2:15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
Heb. 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

mm that's an interesting verse...Christ did not take the nature of angels, yet He is called the Angel of the Lord, mine Angel, the Archangel...

why?
avatar
Admin2
Admin

Posts : 366
Join date : 2017-07-25

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The Lord dwells between the cherubim

Post by Alkaios on Fri Sep 29, 2017 10:09 am

I was going to keep out of this but i cant lets start
The word archangel is derived from the Greek ἀρχάγγελος (arch- + angel, literally chief angel).
Jude 1:9
“Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.” Please note that Michael is called “the archangel” and not “an archangel”.

Daniel 10:13
“But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.”

וְשַׂ֣ר׀ מַלְכ֣וּת פָּרַ֗ס עֹמֵ֤ד לְנֶגְדִּי֙ עֶשְׂרִ֣ים וְאֶחָ֣ד י֔וֹם וְהִנֵּ֣ה מִֽיכָאֵ֗ל
אַחַ֛ד הַשָּׂרִ֥ים הָרִאשֹׁנִ֖ים בָּ֣א לְעָזְרֵ֑נִי וַאֲנִי֙ נוֹתַ֣רְתִּי שָׁ֔ם אֵ֖צֶל מַלְכֵ֥י פָרָֽס׃
וְהִנֵּ֣ה = lo מִֽיכָאֵ֗ל = Micheal אַחַ֛ד =one, another

אַחַ֛ד else where in bible

Genesis 21:15 KJV: the child under one of the shrubs.

Genesis 22:2 KJV: there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains.

Leviticus 13:2 KJV: the priest, or unto one of his sons.

Numbers 16:15 KJV: from them, neither have I hurt one of them.

There is more examples that I can give.

Anyone who has been in the army or who has basic military knowledge laugh. In every army, there are officers. Does that mean that each officer is in control of his own army? All nations have an army and their armies are located in different places, led by a general to carry out specific orders for the entire army. The Bible tells us plainly that the archangel Michael is ONE of the chiefs of the angels (there is more than one leader, or general, or officer etc.) This reveals to us that the heavenly army is well organized in all aspects. The Gospel tells us that even the wicked angels are well organized into legions.

And they came to Jesus and saw him who had been demon-possessed, and had the legion, sitting and clothed and right-minded, the one who had the legion. And they were afraid. (Mark 5:15)

Legions were military units in the Roman army. The wicked angels are organized into legions on this earth as the good angels are organized in heaven. Jesus Christ goes on to say:

Do you think that I cannot now pray to My Father, and He shall presently give Me more than twelve legions of angels? (Matthew 26:53)

Does this mean that there are 12 different armies of angels and each one acts separately from the other? No way! God is the Leader of all the angels and He has chosen to place chiefs over the different legions. One of those chiefs is the archangel Michael.

In the Scriptures, we see that Christ is associated with an archangel. In I Thessalonians 4:16, there is a reference to Jesus’ return to the earth from heaven. It states that preceding the event, there will be a shout from the archangel, meaning that Jesus is the One who shouts and it is His voice that is the voice of the archangel. From this verse we see that Jesus is the archangel Michael.

How in the world can you make such bold statements based on one verse from the Bible? How can you claim that Jesus has the voice of an archangel and is the archangel based on what little information we find in one Biblical verse? The Scriptures also tells us that Jesus has a voice “like the sound of many waters”. Would anyone confuse Jesus with “many waters” just based on what this verse says?


avatar
Alkaios

Posts : 369
Join date : 2017-07-28

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The Lord dwells between the cherubim

Post by Admin2 on Fri Sep 29, 2017 10:35 am

Found it interesting that you only quoted the texts that suited your view.

For instance you left this verse out:

Gen. 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the ***first*** day.

The word ***first*** is the same word for "one" as in "one of the chief princes" from Dan 10:13.

We must look at all possible meanings and decide on which agrees with the context and with the rest of the bible.

Yes, (אֶחָד ʾechad, ekh-awd´) can mean numerically one, however it is also used as an ordinal as in 'the first'. Ordinal is more likely in this case because if we cross reference with Rev 12, the angels who fought against Satan were said to be under the command of Michael, and also it fits with Michael being titled the arch-(chief/supreme)-angel. He is also the one who resurrected Moses.

For this reason we can deduce that Michael is not just "one angel" on the same level as other angels, and as Christ is called "Captain of the Lord's hosts" and many times referenced as "Angel" or "Angel of the Lord", we conclude that Michael is Jesus.

This leaves many questions of course, but like Wolfie said, it is not salvational to know who Michael is, although it is interesting.
avatar
Admin2
Admin

Posts : 366
Join date : 2017-07-25

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: The Lord dwells between the cherubim

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

View previous topic View next topic Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You can reply to topics in this forum